Red light therapy brings better sleep for all: Helight

✍️ Show Notes

Greg joins Fika Bytes this week and talks about his background as an audio engineer, and how that translates over to light engineering, as well as some of the challenges and lessons learned while building and shipping Helight (over 70,000 units sold in the past few years). The science behind this is fascinating, and what really caught my attention was their attention to customer detail. Greg flat out says “if we can't help you, we don't want your money” which is the only way to approach consumer health tech!

🔗 Check out helight.com

🔑 Bytes:

• Focus on your core expertise for the problem you're solving. Packaging, charging, etc are important but first find validation by focusing on your core offering.
• After initial launch, listen to your customers to figure out what's next on the roadmap
• Be as precise as possible with your product requirements doc up front! Know what you want to have better conversations with vendors and suppliers.

Images referenced in episode (4):

💬 Full Transcript

Vigs (00:00) All right, we're live. Greg from Helight. Thanks so much for joining. How are you doing today? Greg Bonnier (00:05) Hi, I'm fine, thanks for having me. Vigs (00:07) So let's jump in and talk a little bit about what your product is and what are the benefits of it for the customer. Greg Bonnier (00:13) So our product, we have two different areas of product. So the first product is what we started the company with. It's a photobiomodulation device. So it's widely known as red light therapy. And what it is is red light at a very specific wavelength with a very narrow bandwidth. So only that wavelength is being emitted by the LEDs that we use LEDs. And what it does is that at high dose on your skin, it's essentially giving your skin cells or all the cells in your body have photoreceptors and they're going to photobiomodulate. That's why the word. So it's gonna modulate the light, the photons and transform them into adrenose triphosphate, which is the fuel of your cell. So what it's gonna have an effect on is... Anything that's inflammatory in nature is gonna help with that. Anything that has to do with scarring, tissue regeneration, because the byproduct of this process is elastin and collagen. So it's also very good for the skin. We actually use a lot of our product. We target the beauty industry, not necessarily. It's not a medical device. It used to be only a medical device for the sole reason that it was very, very hard to hit. that specific wavelength and get that level of precision with LEDs back 20 years ago, the only way to do that was with lasers. And so a lot of people refer to it as low -level laser therapy for that reason, because that's what it was called back 20, 30 years ago. Now we can actually do it with LEDs. So we use a very specific LED that is... been for us and we use that in our product in order to have the highest quality of light possible. Now this is a product that we've developed for their professional industry. So masseuse, sports therapist, physical therapists, it's not a medical product so we don't sell to hospitals. Anyways, they have their own medical class device but ours is a lot cheaper. Vigs (02:06) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Greg Bonnier (02:26) in the sense that since it doesn't have to be classified as a medical device, we can get away with doing things differently that are still going to have the intended effect, but without the price tag of a medical device. So our goal really was to democratize that technology. Now using our photobiomodulation device, we researched a lot about sleep. because it does have an effect on sleep. There's a study from 2012 that's really interesting where they use photobiomodulation on a Chinese basketball team and they were able to see that it would have an effect on their melatonin levels and it actually translated into a better sleep score. And so we thought, is there a way to do that without the high level of the high power output of a device? and rather do it in another way. So we started getting advice from a specific individual called Dr. Grandfier whose specialty is chronobiology and the relationship of light and sleep and how different wavelengths of light and different intensities of light affect our sleep cycle. And so he was able to navigate us into what he thought was going to be the best possible condition to create a device that when used just before sleep would help you achieve a higher quality sleep. And so we did 400 little prototypes and tested it on people. And the way it works is that it's the same wavelength, same LED that we use in our high power device, but at a much lower power. And the idea is to hit a very specific intensity, which is, above the threshold where it would have no effect on your sleep, but under the threshold where it would still keep you awake. And the idea is that we're gonna stimulate intrinsically photosensitive retinal gland cells, ganglion cells that are cells which contribute in no way to vision. Their sole purpose is to regulate certain body functions such as the expression of certain hormones, most notably cortisol in the morning and melatonin at night. Vigs (04:26) Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Greg Bonnier (04:52) And so we thought if this works, it's a great natural way of getting better sleep without any side effects and with an ease of use that is as stupid easy as you pushing a button. And so with his help, we were able to develop this protocol and the way it works is that I have an example right here. Vigs (05:09) Yeah. Greg Bonnier (05:18) this is what it looks like. It's not a large device and it was meant to be made portable for people to travel with. And so it's going to emit this very specific wavelength of red light for a certain, at a certain intensity, for a certain amount of time at full power, which is within this window that I was talking about. And then it's going to gradually fade out for an additional 14 minutes in order to sort of like. Vigs (05:25) Okay. Greg Bonnier (05:45) bring you back to sleep. All experts, sleep experts agree that best sleeping conditions are complete darkness. So it has to turn off at some point, but it can't just turn off like this because that would trigger your fight or flight response. We're animals, we're still animals in our brains. And so anything that is a sudden change in your environment is potentially being perceived as dangerous. Yeah, so it has to gradually turn off exactly and fade out. And as imperceptible, Vigs (06:08) Interesting. So that's why it has to gradually dim down after the session. Greg Bonnier (06:15) It has to be as imperceptible as possible just because you don't want to think about the fact that it's fading, right? So it has to be a very long fade out. And all of these little details and even the diffusion. So this lens that we've developed has a very specific opacity and it's been, if I turn it on, you see that, well, it's hard to say on camera, but it's really all red and it diffuses upwards so that your whole room becomes. Vigs (06:24) Yeah. Yeah. Greg Bonnier (06:43) the device, if you will. And so all of these little details are what we had to work for three years to really fine tune and make sure that it was as effective as possible for the purpose of enhancing sleep and getting people to sleep faster. Cause that's another thing that we noticed is that people using the device were having a lot more ease falling asleep. So it's not just a better sleep. It's also falling asleep faster. And a lot of people, they use it in the middle of the night, you know, when you wake up at 3 a .m. and you're like, bing, uh -oh, I'm not gonna get back to sleep. Well, a lot of people use it to help them go back to sleep. So after three years of that research and development and making sure that we were actually doing something that worked and that was as efficient as possible, as distilled as possible for that purpose. We were happy to put it to market and now we've we've sold since its inception in September 2020 over 70 ,000 units so So we're really happy about that and we have we have a return rate that we give 60 days money back guarantee because you know We want to help people if this doesn't help you then you know We don't we don't want your money the idea is to you know to make a difference. It's really help people But in spite of that, we only have a 5 % return. So usually people who try it, they adopt it. And the hardest part when you're selling light is that it's intangible. And it sounds a bit too good to be true, but the recipe is the proof in the pudding. And our success has led us to actually integrate many major league teams. Sports professional actually see this as a... Vigs (08:19) Uh -huh. Greg Bonnier (08:34) a concurrencial advantage in the sense that if they have better sleep, they recover better and that translates into better performance. So that's where we are. And so these are our two families of product, the sleep aid device and the photobiomodulation product. Vigs (08:40) Absolutely. And I think... Yeah. So this device then that's kind of what you're selling right now. And it's trying to democratize red light therapy, which I think, you know, the mission is, is quite commendable because this technology from the sounds of it used to be kind of reserved for these expensive medical grade equipment. And I just bring it to people's nightstands. Um, so humor me for a second here. This might be a dumb question, but when I'm laying in bed, like, are my eyes open or closed? And if they're closed. Yeah. Greg Bonnier (09:11) No dumb question. That's a very good question. So actually the whole device has been engineered so that you can look at, you don't have to look at it. The fact that it's going to diffuse everywhere in the room creates sort of a womb in itself. And you can close your eyes and this specific wavelength actually goes through the eyelids. The transmission rate to be precise is 8%. So 8 % of those photons are actually going to get to your eyes. And this is sort of the secret sauce, how we were able to really get it to be as efficient as possible is by knowing these perimeter values. And my job at the company is essentially to bridge the gap between the science people who tell us, okay, this is what perimeter value you should be hitting, and the engineers who will design these things and make sure that they actually hit those target values. Vigs (10:17) Yeah, so let's talk about Greg for a second, because you said earlier you were an audio engineer. So how is your journey coming into this, into product development? Greg Bonnier (10:23) Yes. So I'm an audio engineer, I'm a record producer, which seems like it's completely out of phase with wellness products. But in the end, the story is that we were working with our partners in France, doing diverse types of entertainment projects. We're really in the entertainment business. And they came up with that and we thought, you know, this is something that can really help people. Just like, when we make a film or an album, it helps someone forget about his troubles for an hour or two. This is the same idea and the same philosophy behind these products is that it's actually gonna help people for real and alleviate them from a pain. We've had some people, I mean, it's not a miracle solution, but we've had some people go off meds. We've had people who said, I tried everything. and this works for me. It doesn't mean that it's gonna work for you. Everyone is different, but there's no problem trying. There's no downside to trying. So yeah, we thought, okay, this is definitely something we could do. And my background as an audio engineer brought me to know about the physics of sound. So when you build a studio, you have to understand waves and light is also a wave. So the... sound and the light, they're both waves that essentially from a physical standpoint behave the same just at completely different scales. So the example I was giving you earlier when we were talking is that I might have a problem, a wavelength problem, it's called a standing wave in this room in the sound domain. I'm going to have the exact same intermodulation problem in a fiber optic that's a quarter of the size of your hair with light. But the problem is the same. A wave is a wave. It's just that you trade scale and you trade the constant value, which is the speed of sound for the speed of light. That's essentially it. Vigs (12:36) Yeah, yeah. That's what makes physics so great. Greg Bonnier (12:40) Yes, it's very translatable to some extent because a wave is a wave. It behaves the same. Vigs (12:44) Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you built that initial batch of 400 prototypes, kind of get you user testing and stuff, and now you've sold tens of thousands. What was the journey going from prototype to production? Any lessons learned for you? Greg Bonnier (13:00) Oh, many, so many. The prototyping was done not by me, but by a team of engineer in France. And they got to a point where they had created, I don't have an example of it here, but it was made out of metal. It was milled. And it was very nice, but I looked at them and I said, you know, this is nice to make 400. It's not viable to make 400 ,000. So we decided to go with a plastic shell, but we didn't want it to feel cheap. So we added this, it's hard to see on camera, but we added this soft touch. You can see how the light sort of like reflects off it. It's a nice soft touch paint. A problem with soft touch or at least cheap soft touch is that with time they become gooey. So we had to actually try. several types of paint and this particular paint we import from Japan so that it's going to stand the test of time. And now, like I told you, we're four years in and we still have no sticky feeling on the first unit. So I'm very happy about these things, but these are the type of things you have to think in advance because otherwise two years in and you're like, oh, oh, that was the wrong paint that we've been using all this time. So. Vigs (14:24) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Greg Bonnier (14:26) These are like the pitfalls that you really have to think of in advance. And I'm not a product designer. So I really have to surround myself with the right people who are going to have these good reflexes in terms of product development and what materials to choose and how. Just to give you an idea of how this was designed. So I was telling you that the French. they had milled aluminum stuff and it was very complicated. So when I came back with the design, with my design team here in Canada, I said to the guys, we have to make this so that it's not only a lot easier to mass manufacture, but to make every little details such that it's as efficiently as possible to assemble. because that's also a huge part of the cost is labor. So the quicker it gets assembled, the cheaper you can make the device and then that cost always translates into the consumer. So now, you know. Vigs (15:26) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and you're not thinking about that when you're building 400 prototypes because you know you can put that together exactly. Greg Bonnier (15:39) No, no, because that's not the point. Exactly. So for the purpose of testing the technology itself, it was great because we were able to hand make them. And we had control over that side of the production. But then when it comes to mass manufacturing, it's a whole different story. And so all of those pieces are engineered to just clip in together and be as tight as possible so that if you drop it, it doesn't just break. Vigs (15:49) Mm -hmm. Greg Bonnier (16:09) and fall apart. Even the lens here, this is injected plastic and the amount of opacity had to be vetted by my science team. So as I mentioned, we need to hit certain values and these values are sometimes very, very, very precise. And so it's about eyeballing it and saying, okay, we'll make a... Vigs (16:10) Mm -hmm. Greg Bonnier (16:37) 10 % opacity, 11 % opacity, 12 % opacity, and then testing all of those and then say, ah, that's the one. That's the recipe. And so these are all little things that people don't think about when you design something like that. But yes, it does make sense. We're still using micro USB. I wish we had USB -C, but back when we designed this, it was right in the... Vigs (16:42) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh -huh. Greg Bonnier (17:05) smack dab in the middle of a pandemic and there was a shortage of USB -C. So we thought we have to use micro USB. So cable comes in the box, you know, people don't really complain about it, but it's one of those things that you're like, I wish the setting in which we designed these things was different back then. You know, there is one LED model from one manufacturer that I can use. There is no. Vigs (17:12) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Greg Bonnier (17:34) possible because all of the others that exist on the market, they're not as precise and they're not as narrow bandwidth. And this is what I'm looking for. And so if I have trouble getting this one part, I'm in trouble. And that's exactly what happened during the pandemic. So I was hoarding all of the stocks from all of the components distributors all over Asia, Europe and Canada. Vigs (17:59) Yeah. Greg Bonnier (18:02) and North America to try and get as many as I possibly could and hoard them. Yeah, so these are the little things that you don't really think of when you're necessarily thinking about how to market the product or how to conceptualize the technology itself. But then you have to realize, oh yeah, I'm gonna have to make a box. I'm gonna have to, how is it gonna fit in the box? It has to be a... Vigs (18:11) Yeah. Greg Bonnier (18:28) You know, tight enough so that it's not going to move in transport, but also easy to take out of the box. So many things, so many things. Vigs (18:33) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think for someone that's just starting out, like all these other variables, they can get overwhelming. And I think the cool thing about you is like, you guys had this product that you had proven works, and then you get to worry about these little details like, oh, USB -C or Micro or the box, the packaging. But it starts with that product, right? Greg Bonnier (18:52) Yeah. No. Yes, and in the end, what we need to master is not how to make a box, is how to make this product as good as possible. And then we'll find people who can design boxes. We find people who can actually source the correct type of paint. Like I said, I'm not the one who chose that, but it's about surrounding yourself with the right people. Vigs (19:03) Right. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Greg Bonnier (19:22) who will provide the valuable experience and much needed advice that you need to get to the best possible. Vigs (19:34) Yeah, exactly. So you've had a lot of success with this particular model that you designed a couple of years ago. What's in the roadmap for Helight? Are you planning on, so from the way I see it, right, there's like the red light therapy portion and then there's a sleep portion. So are you planning on picking one of those paths, kind of pursuing both? What's your vision? Greg Bonnier (19:43) So. We're pursuing both just because they're both very, pursueable, no, they're both very viable products. They're both different in nature. The photobiomodulation device, the professional version, we were selling for about 4 ,000 US dollars. So it's not a cheap item. So it caters to a certain, and it was meant for professional. to buy and use in their practice, right? This is a impulse buy, it's $139. Anyone who wants to try it, it's a click away, they receive it in their, you know how it is, it's a direct to consumer business, so we ship right away from the US and they receive it. And so there are two very different types of product, I would say. But that led us to product that we didn't know we were going to develop. So here's the future. So for this one, it's actually, it's the future, but it just came out. I have an example here. So a lot of parents would use this on their kids. And the problem is that the kids, they really loved it and they kept on stealing it from their parents. And so we thought, oh, this is, this is nice. We can sell, you know, it can also cater to parents. And so we thought, how can we make a version that is, not, that is without paint, because we didn't want to paint this for babies if they put in their mouth, obviously, we don't want to have paint. So we thought, okay, we'll just inject the color right in there and make a sort of a cuter version of it. And this is what it looks like. This is the the Heelight Kids. Yeah. And so this is the product that we didn't know we were going to develop. You know, sometimes you, you Vigs (21:27) Uh... Aw, that's awesome. Greg Bonnier (21:48) you develop something for a specific market and then something comes along that, you know, oh, here's a new opportunity and that actually a lot of people are very happy to have because now their kids are sleeping. Yeah. Vigs (21:57) Mm -hmm. Yeah, so I'm curious, what was that? Like, how did you know that people wanted that? Greg Bonnier (22:08) So that's a part of being a small company, is that we do all of our customer service. So we're well aware of the stories and how people use our product, what are the problems that they may face with it. It's something, I'll give you a ridiculous example, but in Canada, this fits into a Vigs (22:17) Hmm. Greg Bonnier (22:37) box that is actually so small that it does fit in a standardized mailbox. And so people, they would look at their tracking and it says deliver and they said, well, it's not on my porch, I can't find it and yada, yada, yada. And so we had to put a mention on the website in Canada to say, actually, it might look in your mailbox, it does fit in it. There are little things that you don't realize. One of my favorite stories, so, We've had people return the SleepAid device after 30 days. And a week later, buy it back because they didn't realize how incremental the change were in their sleep quality. But stopping using it, they dropped back to the initial level. Vigs (23:21) No way. Wow. That's a testament to the divide. So do you track the like return repurchase rates too? Greg Bonnier (23:28) You know, it's... Yeah. No, no, no, because usually it's anecdotal, but it did happen more than once. People just getting used to it and not realizing that they actually were getting better sleep and then buy it back. And these are things that you can't really know unless you do your own customer service, unless you're the person who answers the phone. I say me, it's not me, but I did it for some time actually. Jeff Bezos actually was known for taking some customer calls sometimes just to get a hang of what a normal interaction is and how he can improve on that. And so yeah, it's very, very important to be very close to your customer service because that's your feedback and that's how you make changes and this is how you improve your own. Vigs (24:17) Absolutely. Greg Bonnier (24:31) your own service. Vigs (24:33) Yeah, exactly. And I think I've known companies who power up the onboarding for a new employee, regardless of what department, what office, they're going to make them do one or two lease of customer service so they understand the pain point of the product. And I think you've got a product where you're not only the creator of the product, but you're also a user. You are your own user. So I'm sure that helps too. Greg Bonnier (24:44) Yes, exactly. Yes, of course. I mean, I'm thinking of Steve Jobs who, you know, first thing he would do is just pick up the new iPad prototype and play with it until something breaks. And that's obviously that there's only one button in there, but sometimes you just click the button and you're like, oh, why is it sticky now? It never happened. But you know what I mean is that there, or this is actually something that happened. So. Vigs (25:05) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Greg Bonnier (25:22) the way that the micro USB is lined up with the hole, sometimes it would get just a little crooked. And so that's something we had to correct in production. And that's by using it ourselves. Yes, it's very important to use your own product. If it's something that you can, obviously, if you're making prosthetic legs, I couldn't be using it, but in this case, yes, I can. And I do, I do. Vigs (25:29) Oh. Yeah. So what's your number one piece of advice for people that want to start building and shipping hardware? There's like the one most important thing. Greg Bonnier (25:59) Don't think you can do everything yourself. Surround yourself with good talent and know what you want. It's very important. I mean, when we came up with this design, I knew that this was the way to go as opposed to the milled aluminum thing. So it was easy for me to go to a company and say, here's what we have and that we don't want. You know, we want something that is more, you know, like this, like this, like this, like that. And the most precise you are with that, I don't know how to say in English. Cahiers Descharges is the different points that you need for your product to be... So you dress a list, you put up a list of every little thing that you want. You say, okay, we want soft touch paint. We want it to be plastic, but we don't want it to feel cheap. We need... Vigs (26:55) Mm -hmm. Greg Bonnier (27:07) the you know all the perimeter values for the technology itself of course, but also in the design now we want it in a box we want this box to be able to slowly open like this and the more precise you are with these with these this point this sort of I don't know how to say but this this collection of of requirements the the Vigs (27:33) Yeah. Greg Bonnier (27:36) the easier you will get to your finished product that you're actually happy. So be as precise as possible. This is definitely, yeah. And test, test, test, test. Don't assume that because it comes from a professional production line that everything is gonna be perfect. There are gonna be problems. That's the good thing about having an engineering team here that we hire just for that is that they're not just going to design the thing. Vigs (27:41) Yeah. Yeah. Greg Bonnier (28:05) They're also going to receive the first batch, test it out, make sure that it does work the way it was supposed to work. That every little, you know, that nothing sticks, that nothing is likely to break. And so yeah, this is paramount because the worst thing you can have is a mass amount of returns for something that is an actual problem. And you don't want to have that reputation of sending out a product that doesn't work or that is under par with the standard of quality that otherwise you should have. Vigs (28:38) Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But even if that ends up happening, I feel like as long as you have that pillar of customer service first, like you guys do, you can bounce back from it. But I agree, ideally prevent. Greg Bonnier (28:53) Yes, yes. Oh yes, you can buy, yeah, you can buy this back easily because you know right away. So yeah, no, this was definitely something that we did right is to have our own customer service and just to have one at all. Cause some companies they, now it's just, it's a robot, you know. And especially with something so unique, people have questions before buying. like you, should I keep my eyes open? This is a valid question and this is a question that we have often and it's in our FAQ because we know it's a question that comes up fairly frequently. And so yeah, and even with the photobiomodulation, people now are more and more in the know of what it is, especially in the US. red light therapy is being more and more democratized in the sense of people know about it. Not necessarily everyone tried it, but people have heard about it here or there. And so, but it's still something that's mysterious for some people and they might have question and it's just nice to have someone that actually picks up the phone and answers those questions. Vigs (30:14) Yeah, absolutely. Greg Bonnier (30:15) So yeah, and in this regard, actually, this is the future of our next product is a home version of our professional photobiomodulation device. So we took our pro device and we worked with our engineers to make it a lamp that is, and obviously I can't show it now, but I can send you pictures if you want to put them in. It's a red light therapy device that we wanted to look good in your home environment. Sort of like a nice IKEA lamp or a designer lamp, but that does that red light therapy thing. And so we designed this and we made it such that it's not $4 ,000. So the MSRP is going to be $1 ,700. So it's a lot less and it's always going. Vigs (30:57) Okay. Greg Bonnier (31:09) within that direction of making a product that people can actually buy and use at home. And unlike other product, it doesn't use infrared light, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a light that needs to be used with protection goggles. In our case, we don't use it. We've never used it in our product. And so it's completely safe. You don't even need to use a goggle to use these products. So that sort of is our philosophy of, or our approach to photobiomodulation and red light therapy is first, do no arm, complete innocuous and even safe for children. And then second, being something that actually looks good and that you want to have on your nightstand or your living room. Vigs (31:57) Mm -hmm. Greg Bonnier (32:05) Because I mean, I don't want to demonize the panels, but most red light therapy device, they're in panel form. And quite frankly, it's not very appealing in terms of design, at least not for me. And it's also the form factor is not very ergonomic in the sense that you can't sit down and have it point exactly where you want. You have to stand in front of it. And that's not a very pleasurable experience. Vigs (32:30) Hmm. Greg Bonnier (32:34) I'm for one to think that when you do a protocol, a treatment of red light therapy, it should be a very relaxing experience. So we use our own professional device. We actually have a treatment center in Montreal where we had set up these very comfortable chairs and a lot of people would actually fall asleep during the treatment because they were so relaxed. They would come out of the center. feeling refreshed and it's part of the experience, I think, to just relax and wind down. Because that's part of the side effects of using red light. It turns your brain off. It just calms you down instantly. And so I think that it goes hand in hand with doing a 15, 20 minute protocol might as well be a relaxing moment. Vigs (33:32) Yeah. Well, kudos to your team for kind of putting the customer first in all of these cases, you know, not just the customer service, but also the new product development, thinking about how it's going to sit in their homes, how are they going to use it? That's, that's going to keep you guys continue to be successful. Greg Bonnier (33:39) Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully yes, and people are going to really take on the fact that they're a highly usable device and that they're easy to use and that they're appealing. Because quite frankly, it's part of you buy something you want it to look good. It's not just vanity. Why does it have to be only utilitarian when it can also look nice? That was the whole philosophy of C. Jobs when he came up with the iMac, right? Vigs (34:11) Exactly. Exactly. Yep. Yep. Greg Bonnier (34:17) and look what it did to the company, it saved the company. Because I think this is really how we should think in terms of product design. Most of the time it doesn't cost more to make it look good. Vigs (34:26) Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, Greg, this has been really awesome. Congrats to your team on your success. Thanks for coming on. Where should people go to find out more to order their very own device? Greg Bonnier (34:32) Well, thanks. Thank you so much. So, helite .com, we ship everywhere in the world, and otherwise we have shipping centers in Canada and US. It's very quick. It's 100 % money back guarantee. People who try it, you don't like it, if it doesn't work for you, ship it back and you get your money back. But like I said, most people, they end up keeping it. Vigs (35:07) All right, well, I really appreciate your time. Thanks. Greg Bonnier (35:09) Thank you very much.

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